Category: Dating and Relationships
It is 2014, so time to brush up on my catching skills.
I was talking to a friend today, and she disagreed that is harder for a blind or disabled person to find dates.
I want to know what you on the Zone think about this situation?
I say it is difficult, not impossible, but difficult to find dates.
A sighted person has several advantages. Eye contact to let the other person know they are interested, and sight to see the available people around them they might be interested in.
On dating sites, they get responses, so have people to choose from.
These IM deals are even accessible, where we have to wait for messages to appear in our inboxes.
I’m male, and that makes things even a bit harder, because society dictates men approach women, not the other way around.
Sure, I’ve been approached, but if I were female, I believe I’d get more approaches. .
Situation 1. I’m in a club, dressed and beautiful. The problem is, my cane announces; He’s blind!
The women are thinking, I wonder if he’s lost? How did he even get here? Where is his friend, guide, girlfriend, and momma?
Even when I do notice a girl near, and free, when I ask her to dance, she hesitates, because, well, he’s blind! How’s he going to dance?
If a woman thinks I’m beautiful, she has to decide to approach me, and that does happen sometimes, but not often, because she’s getting approached while she’s wondering if she should come talk to me, unless she’s a goat, and I mean the animal.
Situation 2. I place my add on desperate girls.com, or lonely chicks.net
“Hansom, single, rich, blind man”
Wait, he’s blind? How did he even write this add in the first place?
If they fail to read my profile, and many do, because, a picture is worth a thousand responses, when I tell them I’m blind, I get the question above, or no reply at all!
The best situation is if I’m working in the club, as Deejay, or musician. In that case I get approached.
These won’t be the kinds of girls you’ll want to take home to momma, or most of them won’t be, but still!
What do we say? Am I right that it’s harder for us?
What can we do to make this better?
Ladies, are you having a different experience, where you’re having to hire a social director to schedule your time.
Every time you walk outside, or are in public, you have to have a guard to keep the men away?
The girl I was talking to says she has no problem, and gets approached all the time. Has to beat them off with her cane.
My blind male friend swears by what he calls the numbers game. When he sends out enough invites on dating sites, and I mean lots, he hits pay dirt, but it takes a while.
Sometimes we’re not interested in the responders, so that has to be accounted for as well.
I have some ideas, but want to know what you think and what you do about it.
Back in the day it was difficult for me. But like I said on another topic I changed quite a bit from the time I was in middle/high school until now. I dated my first girl when I was 16 years old. This was the result of two desperate people who wanted to be with someone which is one of the worst reasons to get in to a relationship. Lol I ran for the hills when about four or five days later she started talking about marriage and kids which was not on my agenda at the time. But here are a few things I have learned over the years that have made the difference.
The two key elements which I guess you could call the big c's are confidence and communication. I'll start with confidence since this was the thing I lacked for a time. Whether you are disabled or not, the way you carry yourself says everything about you confidence. Most women will pass by the ones who don't look confident and willing to stepout there and take a chance. I can't speak for women, but I think men are a little more leanient in this regard. If a guy is out for some casual fun and he finds a chick who he finds to be attractive he'll go for it. Now, I don't know the experiences of blind or disabled women, you know if it seems like guys pass them off and go for someone with out the disability. And I can't really say because it doesn't matter to me so long as she seems cool and interesting to me. But there is a big expectation of men to be the ones to start the conversation and be confident. With conversation in mind I'll talk about communication now. If you don't make an effort to keep conversation going from the start, things won't continue far. Also, one thing I've found with women is they are curious as to how the guy feels. Generally speaking, guys aren't as emotional as women are so it's hard for us to explain how we feel. It takes a bit of understanding and cooperation from both sides. Plus, if you don't communicate, how are you supposed to know what the other person wants, and how are they supposed to know what you want? Having a disability causes people to be hesitant to approach you because they don't know what to expect. They see something different from the norm and they don't know how to handle it. They do not realize we are people too, and having a disability doesn't mean we have several things wrong with us physically or mentally. If you want to get more experience dating you have to step up to the plate. Put yourself out there and prove that you are worthy. It is not easy for us interoverts like myself, I know. But at the end of the day you have to work for some things you want.
I do see your points and agree with a few. I don't go out to clubs to pick up dates but while at work i have had a couple of guys act interested in me. One even had lunch with me a couple of times. But we had a chance to get to know each other in a setting that wasn't awequord like a club or whatever would be. I mean that in a club, you go to hook up a lot of the times but at work, well, your working... So no added pressure I guess. But even though, yeah, people do have that, "how to deal with the blind thing" thoughts a lot but hey, i say that if they don't relax after 5 minutes or so then it's their loss.
Ah, for real, you crack me up!
From what I've read in other threads, you don't seem to lack confidence.
I'll agree with pretty much everything you say, eye contact being number one. It's really hard to gage attraction level when you can't see a person's expression or meet his eyes. And vice versa-if I'm not giving out info with eye contact, how is a guy sure that I'm interested? Of course, it could be that I look like a toad and generally men aren't that attracted to toads. :)
Wayne, I understand what you mean. Is your friend sighted, by any chance? I'm only asking because people who can see are used to the visual aspect of things, dating, for example. I personally don't believe in having to approach a man, if I like him or am into hin I like to be consistent. I don't think a woman should be shy. I don't know about the whole dating sites, but I figure they're very accessible for the blind. It might be difficult in some ways, like if you go to a pub, obviously you won't know who's looking at you, but you can try and go up to people. Maybe with a sighted friend the first time. I don't think it's all that difficult. I think you can do the same things, but differently.
I'm sorry, I meant that I personally don't believe in a man always having to approach a woman.
I'm the friend Wayne was talking about, and no, I'm not sighted.
I don't get approached all the time, and I'm sure no one does. however, I'll say that Ryan thinks along the same lines as I do, regarding the way a person carries him or herself having everything to do with whether they're approached or not.
if you're looking down, for example, chances are, you won't be approached. whereas, if you're looking up, have a smile on your face, and people can see that you're interested/aware of your surroundings, they're likely to be drawn to you.
confidence, and being outgoing, is key.
Ok, fair enough. I have to agree with the last post. That's why I said that if you're shy you're likely to get nowhere, when it comes to dates.
I would even go as far as saying regardless of you being shy or not, it's all in how you treat it. There are ups to being shy, like the fact that you do not have to be the center of attention to feel accepted, like you tend to stay out of drama and gossip, etc. Hell, if I had the choice between a shy chick and a cheerleader and I was looking for a person to settle down with, I would pick the shy one. Lol. I understand for those that are shy this is easier said than done. But if you want something (or in this case someone) badly enough, you'll take a chance and go for it. In the case of a shy person, don't believe in the saying that says it's not what you say, it's how you say it. Try to find a way to use this trait to your advantage.
We’ve got confidence. We’ve got other ways to do things, and we smile and look up, and don’t poke our eyes.
How many dates does this actually get us?
The IM things on many dating sites are similar to public chat on the Zone, accept, you are talking one on one with several girls, or guys at the same time.
When you receive a message from a prospective date, you hear a sound, but you can’t respond, because it is not accessible.
That makes you seem like you’re not interested, and it is the girl or guy you’ve just sent a personal email message to saying you’re interested trying to talk to you.
If you can see, that avenue is open to you, so you have more opportunity to check out the possible.
Many times if you can’t IM they move on.
Ever been to a concert with say 4 girl or guy friends, or a dance?
You have them make sure you don’t have on mixed mated socks, and your makeup is on right and you’re not wearing the roommates pale shades when you are a dark girl and meant to get the darker.
You’ve ask if you’re ugly and gotten a honest opinion, so your as good as the rest.
At that dance, concert, or outing, your friends hook up faster, and you are left. Anyone know the experience?
I use to have my sighted male friends get me dances, or put me near the available women, so I could talk to them. Works great!
One friend would grab a girls hand and give it to me. It was up to me to keep it after he did the work.
I hear what you that have been kind enough to post have said, but how many dates have you had in the last 6 months?
How’s it working for you?
Wayne, the point isn't how many dates one has had, or wants to have, cause as you yourself have said, things take time.
and, for those of us who are on a really limited income, that makes it damn near impossible to get out on a regular basis, despite how much we may wan to.
so, the answer to your question, is, if I, personally, was able to get out as much as I'd like to, things would work fine, for me.
and, you know what? another thing I forgot to mention, is to not let it get you down, if things don't come right away.
I'm sorry, but you're really making it sound like it's all doom and gloom, and that simply isn't how I see it. I'm sure others would agree.
Nah, Wayne is just talking practical, something no dogmatic or religious will appreciate. But yes, Wayne, you used to be sighted and so you understand the eye contact communication better than many of us.
Homo Sapiens exchange a whole shit ton of information through visual means, eye contact, exchange of expressions, and all at lightning speed compared to vocalization or even touch.
Ironically, a friend and I had this conversation when I was in college a couple decades ago, and he said things then which were extremely taboo though there are movements now who acknowledge it. He upset a few dogmatics also, though just a different flavor of dogmatic. What he proposed, being a biologist, was that human females are looking for the highest possible income provider from a human male, even if they are working and never want kids. If they see you the blind guy, they are likely to see you as a potential drain on resources, not a potential provider of resources. And here we will get every exception to the rule jumping out on this board to shout "not me!".
And, I have been living with the exception to the rule for 20+ years. But she stuck out to me, precisely because she was the exception to the rule. I dated casually before, sure, plenty of it, but never that deep for my own reasons, and theirs always coming back to what could be described no less than income generation. They call it motivation, they call it growing up, and all, but when you dig a little deeper and find out what is really meant, often they meant take me to nicer places. lol. And Wayne you present yourself as financially well-off, every man knows that is a successful way to do this. But human animals looking for mates or even dates do have their lower drives, just as we look for things in women that are indirectly tied, in a biological sense, to fertility, women look for things in men that are indirectly linked to nest-building / providing / taking care of.
That doesn't mean they *want* to be taken care of, or even that he will make the most money. It happens to them before they even know that it does. One guy walks into the club on foot in a nice leather jacket and another drives up, hops out of the car, and comes in in a lesser piece of clothing. Because even today, human females still see an automobile as status, the man with the car gets the first advantage.
I told you what my friend said was taboo. Especially in the early 90s. A bit like proclaiming Zeus as a god under a Christian's cross at a church. It's the sort of thing that is likely to elicit the same religious-fervor responses.
But yes, on first impression, any pedestrian, any disabled person, any bicyclist will probably take second on the dance floor to someone who drove up in even a cracker box like the Handa CRX from the 80s.
Wayne is talking about dates, not long-term.
It will take time for evolution to catch up with culture, and for women to immediately become attracted to the sensitive nice guy who works in I.T. and brings down $50,000 a year.
When that happens, things will be different. Don't believe me? Look at every rich man on this planet who is not in a patriarchal regime, where women have tiehr own free choice. The thing that absolutely terrorizes certain feminists would be that women would freely choose something like nest-building, income provider, and being taken care of. And on the other end, look at Family Courts and tell me women don't want this.
Did I say 'all?' No, I did not, tiny ones. I think my biologist friend was more right than wrong. And precisely because of that I do in fact appreciate what I do have, since I am nothing relally, but an average earner, bit below average, and ultimately when she did feel it important to stay home with the daughter, her financial well-being was not what it could have been. Her first impressions, which came before mine, were quite different than anyone else's I had dated before. And it was precisely that she wasn't asking for things, or assuming that I would pay for everything, that was quite different on the outset.
I'm not saying it's logical: I dated a whole lot of anti-sexist, male-privilege-talking, intelligent, well-written college women who were not as poor as I was, and still those had your typical, my friend would say biology-based, assumtions. None of them *wanted* to be taken care of, all had high aspirations, and none would admit to this. They just changed the wording around to match what's cool and popular.
I'm not saying women who are disabled have it harder or easier: I imagine it is probably identical but different.
None of this is saying what people actually say they want, it's all in the baser subconscious drives that make vegetarians salivate when they smell bacon, and make you want to put on Bermuda shorts and hit the beach when watching the Hawaiians vacate on the travel channel.
Lots of interesting and true points Leo.
My brother would pay the door man to park his sports car in or near the door. Smile. Lots of guys that had them did this.
I’m not here to say it is gloom and doom, because I have written it is not impossible, and that I have had women approach me. My stance is, that it is harder, and I am searching for ideas or opinions on the situation.
Yes, I am talking about dates, not long term, so I am not looking in to time for things to develop. It is Saturday night, and I’m out at a place of some entertainment, doesn’t have to be a club, and I want company. I go out seeking company.
Maybe I am just looking in the class room in my college, or the student union. I have done this.
Let’s use the student union, I hang out there 2 3 times a week, so I’m seen, and can talk to people, and they see and can talk to me. My friend James hangs out too, so he can be seen. James and I are at the same level, accept, James is sighted. James will pull more dates, and get more opportunities to my few.
Financial ability to go out is a factor, but doesn’t have to be. It cost you nothing to hang out at the local swimming pool, park, book store, church, if that is your thing. These are all great places to meet people.
Many live in apartments, so have blub houses, or rec centers, and if you are a college student the above places, with the added sporting events.
How many of you hang out, and how successful are you when looking for dates?
All this assumes you are looking.
How successful have you been online dating, provided you do it? That also is cost effective, especially for women, because many sites won’t charge them, but do the males.
Well, to be honest I still see these as all excuses. It just seems like you are trying to make excuses for why it isn't working out for you. Fortunately you aren't giving up, obviously you wouldn't be asking these questions if you were planning on just giving up. But one point I feel should be braught up is that social status also plays a part in whether or not you attract people. Not everyone wants to take a chance with a rich person, because believe it or not people also have stereotypes about the rich. For example, I had a friend say that she wanted nothing to do with someone who was rich because rich people are nasty, selfish, and rich guys are dicks. I wish I would have thought of the question at the time and asked her how many rich people she actually knew, and what her definition of rich is since our society is so politically correct nowadays. Another example I have is about another girl I knew a few years back who was very attractive. She told me that she hasn't been asked out by many guys which she believes could be because they were intimidated. Now it could have varied from person to person. I just found it shocking that this was the case because of how picky people can be, and how many people say they would go for an attractive woman. Perhaps for some it is just all talk, and when the situation comes up they can't muster up the courage. I just feel that it will only feel like a struggle if you make it harder on yourself. You say you have the confidence so maybe it's something else. But just realize that a disability is not the only reason why people are afraid to approach. Anything different for some reason makes people hesitate.
Except that it certainly *does* work out for Wayne.
wayne, I will shamelessly admit my tactics were to often offer to buy her something, even something small, or split what I had with her, whoever the her happened to be. Questions about blind this or disabled that have less of a meaning while she is shaded from the rain by somebody else's umbrella or jacket. lol. But I have not played the field in many years. But that tactic did work for me, including with those who claimed they didn't need a man for anything, or said that they just didn't believe the blind could do this or that. Back to nature / biology trumping beliefs. Just like the vegetarians salivating at the smell of bacon in our food service establishments.
Ryan! Forereel doesn’t have any problems finding dates, or I should say, understands how, you do understand that right? Smile.
I posted this topic, because no matter how successful I am at dating, or finding dates, I still think it is harder.
Some playmates have complained about the attractive thing you stated, and many think pretty women are unobtainable, so you are right on that score.
Now that is one problem a blind man doesn’t have. You only have her voice to go on, so even if she’s queen Sheba, you’ll not know it until the guys in the place stand up and cheer when you walk out with her on your arm.
But I’m here to learn what we think.
You say you don’t think it is harder, so I asked the questions to get you to say what it is you are doing.
Next, I want to know how successful you are.
If you think it is easy to jump rope, tell me how, and show me how you are doing it?
I want to jump rope too!
Oh absolutely. To be honest it's hard to say because I have not lived both worlds, the sighted and blind perspectives. So after thinking about this from both points of view, it's hard for a lot of us who have been blind or partially blind since birth to answer this. You've challenged me to think which is never a bad thing sir.
you don't have to live both worlds, though, to gain a sense of perspective from the other side.
talking to sighted people helps me better understand where they're coming from, but never will I buy the, "it's harder cause you're disabled," argument. that's just as ridiculous as telling someone, "you have it harder cause you don't have many people around to help you, when need be," in my opinion.
I just want to know from the blind prospective alone.
Not only blind, but disabled.
You see blind persons are not all just blind. Some have other disabilities as well, so are multiple disabled.
I use blind, because that is the main thing here.
Now, I'd imagine a sighted person in a wheelchair would have different challenges, but I don't know about these, only that they are.
On this site we are blind, and other things, so I am asking this community.
My thoughts are based on my personal experiences as well.
No, it isn't hard for you to say. How many dates have you gotten in the last 6 months? You are a blind, college, male beast. Are you crooking your finger, and the girls are running over to say hello?
Are you sitting at home wishing your finger was the magic wand?bend? Tell me about it!
I want to give others prospective if they are not dating, and I want to know the tricks of the winners, so we all can enjoy.
I think dating is just difficult whoever you are, so blind and disabled folks have some unique challenges just because my impression is that most of your standard able-bodied sighted folks just don't expect to date anyone blind or disabled. It just ain't considered sexy! But even fully sighted able-bodied highly attractive folks have to wrestle with things like having to play gender roles vs. doing what you want, societal rules in general, what will people think, ideas and ideals of romantic idealism, I can continue with the grocery list if you wish. I know when I was young and single I had a helluva time dating especially when I concentrated only on dating sighted gals. Now, when I wised up and started being social with other blind people and I also knew some with other disabilities, then a few ladies in those circles seemed to take interest. Granted, I don't think the blindness was the only factor in my being overlooked. It well could have been my nerdy introverted nature or perhaps I was lacking in the whole money/power/status thing or I didn't have a car for obvious reasons, I have no way of knowing unless I was told and who'd want to hurt my feelings? So anyhow, the story, tragic and pathetic as it may seem, ends well I assure you. After one serious relationship I had with a gal who was too high maintenance for my tastes, I met a woman on an e-mail list for blind folks, she being as blind as I am, and we did not intend to date each other but love snuk up on us that year of 2001 and we started a long-distance relationship. I moved in with her in 2004 and we got married on May 21, Fake Doomsday in 2011 and we've been happily married since. Take from this what you will.
Something that has always gotten me attention in clubs goes right back to what you see all the time on nature programs. Making enough of a display that a prospecctive partner for the evening notices you, and is interested. While I didn't believe it when I first got told it, it's true. Stay in your group of friends, dance like you're having the time of your life, look around a lot and smile, and they'll want to come have fun with you, cane, or wheelchair, crutches, or whatever. As was mentioned abuv, expressing confidence is key, and you can show that really well in the way you enjoy the night. I sometimes venture off in clubs, and see if I can find someone myself, but that's only when:
a) I know the club well enough, and
B) if I actually enjoy the music enough to have a good time on my own.
It can be hard, I have my great nights, and my awful nights. Sometimes, it feels like pot luck. But honestly, if you can outdance the people around you, that's all you need to get things going. All of the conversation and flurtation comes afterwards.
I'll admit it can be a lot harder when you're blind, but like with anything else, you just have to work away at it. The only easy way I can think of is the simpethy card, and I'm sure noone wants to use that. I can safely say I don't.
Never would you buy the "It's harder if you're disabled," argument?
Okay. Since we're throwing logic out the window in favor of apparent religious ideology, I guess we shouldn't buy the "Some things are just easier if you can fly," argument either. Because to you, climbing a mountain is no harder than it is for a bird that can fly over the top. But who said ideology had to at all be logical, scientific, or anything other than primitive and religious?
Of course some things are harder and others are easier. Contrary to teenage-style thinking, it doesn't make someone less of a person to admit it: it makes them a pragmatist and honest. Which won't get you far with religion / ideology, but goes a million miles in the real world.
To the last post, way to go implementing science rather than ideology / religion. You're right about mating and display.
Lol if only I could actually dance. I've gone ahead and gotten tipsy enough where I've gone on the dance floor, not giving a fuck what people think of my dancing and just having fun. And that alone attracted plenty of attention. Supposedly someone took a video of me doing this but I was never fortunate enough to find said video. I found this out the next day when some random chick confronted me in the lobby of the dorm and just said yo, I saw your video. Naturally I didn't know what she was talking about because I hadn't been told I was being recorded, but hey. Nothing wrong with having fun and being displayed for it. You're asking for it when doing something in public, though I'd just be another fool if I hadn't had the cane. Lol. I've recently found that college isn't for me which is another completely different subject which I won't ramble about on here, but I have not had any serious relationships with a local girl while attending my college. Part of this being because I wasn't actively seaking out someone to settle down with. I was and still am open to something more casual because so many elements of my life are up in the air right now and I would hate to settle down with someone, then disappoint her when I figure things out and choose to jump at a career opportunity that could be far away. However there were two girls I was real interested in during separate occasions of college. No lie, the first one hooked up with this dude the day I was gonna ask her out on a date, and things didn't work out with them in the end because the dude turned out to be an ass hole who tried his hardest to ruin her job at school and succeeded. So after that I hadn't seen much of her, and I'll admit I could have tried to keep communication going at the time. But I realize she was going through a lot with that guy and she probably didn't want to date someone from school and take that risk. Plus, as that was going down I started talking to this second girl who had broken up with her boyfriend, yet she was still talking to him. The boyfriend considered them both to still be dating. But to make a long story short they end up back together which I saw coming way before that. Whether you see all this as successful or not, I'm still glad to say I had a couple attempts that may not have worked out, but such is life.
Leo's dead right.
We as blind people can't do the eye-contact thing. Guess what? This means we're at a disadvantage from point 1.
Will we probably make it up in time? Yes, we almost certainly will. However, the uphill climb is still very much in evidence. Admit it or don't, it's still there. If you can't see, then you are losing out on a fairly important part of both initial flirtation and basic courtship. Almost all intelligent animals put on some sort of display, and almost all of it involves sight and/or eye contact at some stage. The sooner you can accept this, the better. It doesn't make you weak, crippled or cowardly. It makes you honest.
To the overall point, then, I say that yes, dating as a blind (or disabled in general) person is harder. Not way harder unless your social skills are actively bad, but you've got a few more hurdles to jump, at least.
I agree. It ca be hard. A lot of women these days sighted ones at least, will write you off if you lack either a car or a well-paying job. True I've beenw ith a lot of sighted women but I quickly realized they were with me basically because more often than not they were desperate to be with someone but the other men they'd beenwith weren't willing tolie down and take their crap. And no I don't mean the disagreements that are bound to come up in even te best relationships. I'm talking about the ones who treat their partners like dirt and expect them to just lie down and take it. I've only been with one sighted woman who really treatedme like I was a real person. Then againshe did have a disability of her own and so understood what it was like to be treated differently. She is regrettably no longer with us due at least in part to complications from her disability, which was Spina Bifida. Then of course there's the other questions that Wayne raised, the wondering ow we got to the club or coffee shop or wherever we might happen to meet the girl. Or if it's on an online dating site they wonder, assuming they bother to wonder at all, how we wrote the profile.
You want to know how I attract a man?
Okay. Here's my sure fire, no fail way of totally getting a man to be spellbound.
I am totally myself. If I'm feeling bitchy, I'm bitchy. If I'm angry, I'm angry. If I'm upset, I get teary or rant about whatever's bothering me.
If I'm feeling sexy, I act sexy. If I'm in a humorous mood, I say things I think are funny and I laugh.
I'm just me, plain and simple, myself as much as I'll ever be around another human.
And I swear, it never fails. Guys love me then.
But there's one more ingredient to this sure fire, no fail list.
I have to completely and totally not be interested in the guy for this to work.
If all these ingredients are there, the guy is smitten.
So now all I have to do is figure out how to do this with guys I'm interested in!
:P
Okay VH, I'm smitten. I have been totally won over on the strength of your post. Now, who are you, and when can we talk about it?
I really appreciate all the post, and prospectives.
Runner, I give you girl points. 2, even if they work, or don't is 2.
I also seriously believe in the statement that we first need to accept we've got limitations. If we can deal with that, not only will we learn how to have a good time as one poster stated, we will get someone to come over and ask. "you seem to be having a good time?" At that point you kidnap her and take her or him home to marry, um, maybe? Lol.
I do say that works. I was pretending to play the guitar on night while listening to a guy on stage, and some lady came over and ask,"what are you doing?"
Not to be an insensitive prick, but I truly don't think some of you guys understand how powerful eye contact/body language are. You can convey concepts in a fraction of the time it takes to express them in any other way, like leo stated.
Lets take a simple example.
You meet a friend at a diner for breakfast. You guys sit down, start talking. You notice they have some of the free coffee the diner provides, and look at it questioningly.
they shake their head, give a slight shrug, and pointedly look over at the display of sugar and cream packets on the table. All the while, carrying on a different conversation. the visual exchange could be over in less than 2 seconds. Where as think about how long it takes you to ask "Is the house coffee any good?" considering that if you are to voice this, you'd probably not ask while your server is near, on the off chance your friend says no. So, you wait for the appropriate time, then voice your question and then they take another 5 seconds to 20 seconds explaining that the coffee is week, and watery, but at least its there, followed up with the advice you add sugar or something to give it a taste.
Or this example.
You're at a party. With one look, you can scan the room, figure out roughly how old anyone you're interested in is, if they have company, what their social standing is like in their group, how their friends react to other people trying to make a move with them, and if you catch their eye... Oh, you can ask the are you interested question from across the room. Just like that, you have a yes or no. which could lead you to maybe go to them, stay at your table, or for them to come to you. I'm not saying visual information is the end all, be all, but i'm saying its something that can't be overlooked. Study after study tells us that 70 percent of what people infer about what someone is saying is based on how they look/body language, 20 percent is tone, and the remaining 10 percent is what they're actually saying.
you can overcome that, but the first step is admitting you're at a disadvantage. your second step is finding ways to give yourself other advantages to compensate. Maybe you don't work best in the club venue. Find a medium that translates better to your personality.
I think that hooking up with sighted people while blind has several additional potential challenges you may or may not face, that sighted people just won't. they can be over come.
Lets look at what other studies show. Taller guys are more desirable on average than shorter ones. That is another biological thing people just can not change. Where as if a girl is too tall, statistically she'll do better with guys who are also tall enough to be taller than she is. most guys just are not comfortable being shorter than the person they're with. their are all sorts of subconscious physical factors that make people more or less likely to give you a chance. the thing about them though, is that most of them are either like a 1 or two point penalty or bonus on a 100 point scale. People usually have enough bonuses to make up for some or all of their penalties. If you're really lucky you end up with biology that gives you very few penalties, and a lot of bonuses.
A disability though, is something like an instant 35 point hit to your score. Particularly if you're a guy. Because as leo stated, having a disability is not only unattractive, but it implies you're not as capable as average able bodied people. you don't get payed as much, you can't do as much for yourself, etc.Weather its true or not. Most people *gasp* don't think logically about attraction.
How much do you guys think a disability is a penalty on our standard 1 to 10 scale we rate peoples attractiveness on? I know some really cool people that happen to be disabled. But when it comes to pulling in people of the opposite sex that are completely able, even they think they take a 3 point hit. You can do a lot of stuff to go above and beyond your competition. Dress really nicely, be extremely well groomed, demonstrate you've got a lot of money to spend, be funny... But at the end of the day, you've still got that , penalty to overcome when trying to make a good first impression.
If you do a good job, people may potentially see it as a non issue. But its a lot to overcome. People fear blindness more than cancer, heart failure, being deff... you're not only competing with all the biological factors Leo pointed out, you're competing against instinctual fear as well. Not of you personally, but of your condition.
Can you overcome that? hell yes. But do you have some hurtles in your path 99 percent of people don't? definitely.
fortunately in this world their are a lot of biological boosters that could effect you, as well as penalties. You can easily make up for your blindness if you happen to have the right combo of other characteristics we're all preprogramed as humans to find attractive.
one last thought. Most people make the determination of weather or not they'd consider someone hookup worthy in under 10 seconds, at least on the subconscious level. Unless you're doing the online thing, you've got to be damn sure you're making a really snappy, and likable first impression.
it's all in how we see things. some people say we're at a disadvantage cause we're blind and miss out on eye contact. others disagree, choosing to make the most of that fact, by finding other ways to show their interest in someone.
so, just cause I'm not in agreement that eye contact is an absolute hardship for people who are blind, doesn't mean I don't realize how valuable it is to those who do use it.
this is why I say things aren't any harder just cause we're blind. different? sure. do we have to make modifications along the way, in various situations in our lives? yes, but that's just part of what has to be done, if we wanna be successful, in any way.
Here is a nonsexual eye contact situation that actually happened to me when the Wife and I were at some friends' for a party once. And no dogma, no organization for or of the disabled, could work around this:
The wife and I were on one side of the room, and this other lady she knew was on the other, tons of teeming peoples in between. A very short eye contact exchange took place between the wife and the woman across the room, who had her laptop out. I hate doing geek work at parties, so had someone come up to me and started asking me for help on some random issue I might have blown her or him off, hopefully in a discreet manner, unless they were a friend.
But through the eye contact she communicated to my wife that there was some kind of trouble, not just I can't look at this naughty pic it's all grainy. That excahgne, if we had been blind, would not have happened, period. Plus, if it had started to happen, that other woman would have had to first come at me directly asking for help, that it was urgent, before getting to some kind of geek question.
No dogmatic, no blind religion, nothing at all, could change this. The only difference is, the sighted person stood to lose in this situation, so she did the smart thing: eye contact with the wife, convey that "help me" look, point at her computer and point at me or something, something very fast.
For the dogmatic: Try if you can to remember 8th-grade science. Light travels faster than sound, period. Also, the human eye takes thousands of images per second, way more than our ears take in sound.
This is no more of an excuse than any other rational depiction. All of us have said in an email or a text, that we would rather talk about something face-to-face. That isn't even preference either, it has to do with the difference between written text, and the rich expressions done by voice and other nonverbal factors in person.
Does that mean that people are weak to acknowledge this? No, it only means the dogmatics are exercising their dogma. This in a country where we have states like Texas trying to remove science curricula from classrooms and taking the words "Slave Triangle" out of the textbooks so the Great Whites don't get offended. It's all the same shit, different topic.
Chelsea, perhaps this will help.
Define "hard", in the context of this discussion. You say that being blind doesn't make dating harder. Well, if you define what's hard and what's not, we can probably come to some sort of definitive explanation as to why you feel as you do. Youure not obligated to do this, of course, but perhaps it will help.
It is my belief that any attempt to define this word will produce a scheme of thought within which I, or any number of a bunch of others here, will be able to isolate the problematic definition.
If someone defined "ocean" as "the dregs in the bottom of a teacup" and then, based on that definition, contended that one could indeed empty the ocean with a spoon, they'd be right. The problem would lie in convincing other people to accept this definition of the word ocean over the other more widely accepted explanation. I think that might be what's happening here, but I will wait for you to define "hard" in this context in order to be certain.
Well said SW.
This is very interesting. I have peripheral vision so when I was younger, when people didn't point this out to me, I never looked at people, or so that's how it appeared to them. Because to me I actually was looking at them but sideways instead of facing them directly. I know people have a range of peripheral and tunnel vision so looking at someone straight ahead probably looks different to the person who is being stared at. I try to at least look in the person's general direction, that is where they are in relation to me, but I don't see how it would be possible to make direct eye contact with them. But one thing I have noticed without noticing (if this makes sense) is when I get engrossed in conversation and become interested in a person at a moment in time, I don't think about which way I am facing or looking, and I don't even pay attention to whatever it is I am looking at whether it is the person or something else. I can see how this might be awkward to someone who never met someone who is blind or does not have all their sight, but hey. Some people are more open minded than others.
Greg, I'm not the one who said it was hard, so why are you asking me to define what that means?
to give credit where it is due, someone who has been visually impaired from birth or from an early age develops differently than those of us who developed sight issues later in life. If allowed the freedom to do so, they develop to the world naturally while those of us who lose sight have to adapt and accomodate. There are advantages and disadvantages to both.
But to the eye contact business in relation to dating, I can tell you the first time I knew the power of eye contact. I was 13 and at the mall and this guy was across the mall from me I'd guess 50 feet away although I'm bad at judging distance. He was on the short side, kind of skinny, wearing jeans and a red tank top. He had pale skin and very dark hair, I'd guess Italian. I didn't find him at all my type. But anyway, he looked at me across quite a distance, checking me out. When our eyes met, I felt the sexual charge run through me like nobody's business; one glance from a man I wasn't even attracted to.
The last time I was able to have eye contact was a long time ago, but I remember it well also. I was climbing up a ladder to meet the guy I was dating. I saw his chin first, his mouth, his nose. When our eyes met, my knees buckled. I can't put a name or description in what was there in his eyes, but it was instant and powerful. Yeah, yeah, it was desire but words-and I love words and the search for the perfect word- don't come close to being able to capture that.
On the other hand, the brain is an amazing thing. So the visual cortex doesn't have anything visual to process from early on? Well, it's going to be put to use for something else. And other parts of the brain are going to be kicked into action to do what needs done. Most likely, the brain is doing 99.9% of what needs to be done only in a different way, ways that might be better/more effective in those ways than those who are normally sighted.
But consider dogs so that this isn't as personal. I'm no expert on dogs, but don't dogs do most of their courting through sense of smell? If I'm wrong, this argument won't hold up, but here's trying.
If a pup is born with no sense of smell, he or she will adapt. But what are the mating chances of that dog if he or she can't smell? Doesn't mean it won't happen, just means that it is going to require more work or to put it another way, the opportunities will be fewer. One sniff can tell a dog a world of information about another dog, just as vision can for people.
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As far as money and women-be very careful. A man flashing money around as though that's what it is all about or as though he thinks it will make the ladies come running is a huge turnoff.
Do you have a good work ethic? Do you manage your bills? Do you have a good attitude? That's a lot more important than having a lot of money.
I will admit that if I were still interested in having children, money would play a more important role. But money by itself means nothing. If you are a jerk and have money, you're still a jerk. Now, you put two identical good guys together and give one a comfortable wage and give the other one a minimum wage job, the money will have more of an impact.
The thing I know that was in my mind when I was thinking of having children was driving. (I had 20/20 for quite a while, then around 20/200 and now pretty much blind) So I was indeed concerned about the potential father of my kids being able to drive for emergencies and just the ease of daily life. Yes, being visually impaired for that reason was a disadvantage for a guy for me then.
I did however date a visually impaired guy and he unfortunately whined all the time about not being able to drive and said the times we went out weren't really dates because we either walked or took a bus so they didn't count. That was insulting to me. He downgraded our relationship because of his own insecurities and definitions of what a man "should" be able to do. I loved him and had things been different, we could have ended up together. It would have been great if he had been able to drive (oh and by the way, he married a woman who drives!) but in the grand scheme, it wouldn't have stopped me if other more important factors had been right.
Well, my take on eye contact wasn’t as deep, but yes all is so.
Sometimes it isn’t eye contact, but facial expression. Body language.
The smell thing is interesting, because that is what I sometime use to learn if a women is sexually interested in me, or sexually in the mood, not necessarily for me, but in general.
To make it be me requires the rest, such as conversation and such. It seems to work for me if she is sitting with me, or we are in a confined space, like riding in a car, or bus, like that. A room as well.
I think what was asked is if you think dating isn’t hard at all, can you give some examples of why you think so Chelsea?
Remember about the jump rope. If you are jumping rope, how? If you say there is no limitations, why?
The flashing of money is crude, but guys do it. I don’t have it to flash, so I have to work with my smile.
Of course I could go to a place of entertainment with my brother and lean on his sports car like I own it….
Give me a ride home honey? Okay baby, in a minute! Keep leaning. Lol
Chelsea, I'm challenging you to define "hard" precisely because you're trying to contend that it's -not harder on the blind to engage in the minutiae that often surround the start of so-called courtship.
You say "it's not harder, it's just different". So define harder, and by doing so, I will be able to determine that by your definition, dating for the blind is, or is not, actually harder.
Until you're able or willing to do this, I'm afraid you're in a tight spot. You have a bunch of people who are quoting logic, science and straight-up facts of life, and you're continuing to pull the "it's not harder, it's just different" card. How it seems to you, and how it really is, are two very different things. If it doesn't -feel hard, that's great; that means you're probably doing it right. But this doesn't mean that you have the same overall statistical chance of getting lucky as someone sighted, or otherwise enabled. You have forces working against you. So do I, for that matter. Most of the time, since we're used to them and have made our peace with them, we don't care and they don't matter. It's the same as a short person making their peace with how high certain truck seats are, or an overweight person making their peace with airline seats. They may not think of it as hard, but it still is in some ways.
I personally contend that "hard" is not just a state of mind. If you believe differently, feel free to say so.
no, Greg, I'm not in a tight spot.
just cause numerous people say something, doesn't mean it's reality.
for instance, if I were to tell you that I saw my fairy godmother today, you'd say that I was full of shit, albeit in watered down words, since that's your style.
most of the world believes in religion, too. does that make it the only truth, just cause many people believe it is? absolutely not.
I've made myself clear on my stance, as far as I see it. I've said that many of you are trying to make eye contact seem like a big loss/disadvantage to us, and I don't see it as a hinderence, at all.
as someone who has multiple visible disabilities, and a visible leg condition, I could choose to say that those issues make things harder on my getting to know people.
my leg becomes so jerky, at times, that it's obvious something is wrong, but instead of having the attitude of, "oh, I should just go home, so people don't see me like this," I understand that some will approach me regardless, while others won't.
so, when I say I don't think we have a harder time as disabled people, what I mean, is, there are things some people see as barriers, that really don't have to be.
Here is the difference.
If you say it isn't reality, you'd have to say why.
You say you can go out, and people see your issues. Do you have any staries that are facts you can tell?
The posters that talk about eye contact never say it is the only means to meeting, they just say it is the method used to understand interest, and such things.
If I say, I have several problems, but yesterday I went out, and 4 guys came over to speak to me anyway. In the past 6 months, I have had 5 dates, and these persons I dated approached me at the store while I was shopping.
I find when I'm out, or on a dating site, I get just as many responses as my friend Jane, that has no visivle issues, and can see.
If I'm at a club, and this happens to women, men will buy me drinks just as often as the other ladies in the room.
I personally have never been told that my issues were a problem by any man. When I say, I'm blind, they say, or really? What do you like to do for fun. It isn't a conversation stopper.
This is not like religion where people believe in something, this is reality.
Can you dance if asked? Are you able to meet me at the coffee shop in 5 minutes?
I personally am not saying it is impossible, but I do admit and think it is harder.
I could give you more examples, and if you've been able to compat them, tell me how?
From psychology class, here is what I have learned in regards to facial expressions, eye contact, and body language. During the time that you are a baby you don't know what certain gestures mean. Your body does not have complete control of itself. Minus the facial expressions, which come to us naturally regardless of whether or not we can see, everything else is learned. Once we become able to control our limbs we are able to copy the hand gestures of our parents or whoever it is that raises us. Now, obviously a person who is blind is not able to learn body movements in this way, nor do we know from seeing a facial expression what it means. However it comes back to what I said earlier, that humans naturally display a facial expression when they feel a specific emotion. A happy person smiles. An angry person's eyebrows go up and the nose wrinkles sometimes. A surprised person's eyebrows shoot up if the means of surprise is startling. So there isn't really any way a facial expression is awkward with the exception of making a face. Eye contact and gestures are a different story, though. A lot of the time we don't pay attention to what we do with our eyes or hands when we are focused on a conversation, or something that requires a lot of attention. I have practiced trying to focus my eyes in the direction of a person even though I can't see them when I position my eyes and head in their direction, but unless it is something I think about at the time it doesn't happen. I still don't really know any hand gestures, so when I think about what to do with my hands I'll usually just move or swivvel them a little, instead of letting them dangle awkwardly when I am standing. I don't think it is awkward to let them rest on a table or your lap while you are sitting, but this could be something I am not aware of. When I talk to someone who moves their hands a lot, it just looks like they are waving their hands around. I can't tell what it is exactly they are doing. I would love to learn more about gestures because I'm weird like that I guess lol. But that's probably for another topic, either that doesn't exist or I'll make up myself. Hopefully what I've said makes sense and is said accurately. Some of it is from what I've learned in psychology, and other parts of it are opinions I've come up with based on what I learned in the class.
I'm probably in the different rather than harder camp here. On boards like this we are in danger of creating a homogenous composite/amalgam from the planet sighted, who is self-confident, a high earner and owns a car. The fact is that everyone sighted is different, just as everyone blind is different. Some are self-confident and some not, some high earning and some unemployed, some driving and some not.
Being blind obviously creates challenges when it comes to dating, as things like eye contact are taken out the game. But self-confidence will get you a long way and online dating is a viable option. Some of the instant message features of those sites may be inaccessible, but most if not all will offer an email function.
For the two years that I explored online dating on and off, I met up with a lot of different people. As with any date, some of those were more successful than others. Most of my sighted friends who were dating at that time had fewer dates. Obviously there were a number of reasons for this: Some found someone more quickly, others had less time to date because of childcare commitments, while others still shied away from meeting someone from a site even though they'd signed up. All this is why I think trying to define hard would to a certain extent be a pointless exercise and doing so in terms of numbers would certainly be facile.
Online dating is far from the only option though, and nights out in bars, groups you join through interests/hobbies etc are all viable. Clubs are probably where it does get more difficult, but I suspect that dating difficulties in clubs are almost exclusively a pre-occupation of the under 25s.
All good posts.
As to the eye contact thing, VH, you speak well on this: I have been married for 20 plus years, and we communicate well. But there are times I know when she, a very visual (not just 'sighted', but relates visually) person would be better served if I could have just visually picked up on something rather than guess. I'm just being honest.
Know what else? They have forums and stuff for people who work graveyard, people working graveyard say that their dating experiences are harder than for those of us who work during the day, and have listed numerous reasons.
I honestly haven't done the online dating thing, so I have no perspective on that, except that my brother who is a doctor met someone on an online game 18 years ago and has been married to her for many of those years, so obviously people can make that stuff work.
Nuts and bolts to consider here:
A blind person doesn't have the advantage of eye contact, nor the advantage of sweeping a room at a glance to gauge what's going on.
A sighted person is entirely capable of being self-possessed, confident and charming enough to give a good impression. This particular suite of gifts is not limited in any way to the blind.
In other words, the blind don't make up for a lack in one area with a strength in another, not in this, not practically. The sooner we can accept this, the sooner we can dispense with the debate.
Eye contact plays a large part in courtship. This is a fact.
Blind people don't do eye contact. This is a fact.
Self-confidence, hygiene and good impressions not based on eye contact all matter a great deal in courtship. This is a fact.
The blind and sighted are pretty evenly matched in these areas. This is also a fact.
Statistically speaking, the blind have more to overcome than the sighted, on average, since they must fight an intrinsic disadvantage while the sighted face no such resistance. This is also a fact.
No amount of self-analysis, self-aggrandizement or self-confidence can change facts like these.
This is demonstrable, scientifically proven logic, demonstrated here in laymans' terms. This isn't religion or conjecture based on wishy-washy theory. Any comparisons to unfalsifiable so-called truths are irrelevant.
Lol Shepherdwolf, I like it.
Someone asked me if my senses were better because I am blind. I asked, if she broke the lens on her video camera, would it's mic automagically work better?
But, guys like us are born to disrupt the magic show, I guess.
Don't get me wrong. I'll be the first to applaud people who don't let difficulty get them down, and the first also to applaud not being a sheep. Don't be a sheep, by all means. Don't follow the crowd, and don't get down on yourself because life is shit...or try not to, since we all do it sometimes. But it's best to be as realistic as possible, and facts speak loudest.
A side note. Not all sighted people speak with their hands.
If you don't know how, simply rest them in your lap, on a table, or fold your arms. This is the same thing sighted persons do.
If you are standing just allow them to rest at your sides.
VH, about money and women: Anybody flashing money around truly does not have it. It's like confidence or self-possession: Obvious when it is there, but those who shout the loudest and show the most usually have the least.
What you are looking for is in fact money, though: someone who will pay the bills for the next 40 years, plus now add on to that the expectation of a man is to be sensitive and demonstrative of how good he is with children. This, boys, is why she wants you to meet her pets and pick up their poop. Because if all goes according to plan, you will be doing a lot of poop-picking-up for a couple decades to come, even if you all don't have kids.
Now of course there are exceptions. I say it rains here in Oregon, but this winter is an exception, so somebody could jump down my throat and say how dare I belittle Oregon like that because there is a winter, that of 2013 / 2014, where we got very little rainfall. That doesn't change what happens most of the time.
But as long as we are the potentially chosen, and women are the choosers, this will always be the case, be it money, sensitivity, or something else. If you have a chooser / choosee relationship, you have a provider / provide relationship. Not necessarily patriarchal, and modern society shows that provider doesn't mean dominant. It means appliance, though, and always has.
I'm not sayng it's wrong or right. In fact, no matter what society dictates or what is popular, because the Wife opted to stay home and raise the daughter, I personally feel a lifelong obligation to make sure she personally can catch up to earning potential and so on. That wasn't put on me by her, it simply is, dare I say, the nature of it.
And because of the chooser / choosee relationships, nobody will ever feel compelled to do anything to offset the pressures that we as men face, pressures that are not politically correct or socially acceptable to express in most circles. Good bad or indifferent, I'm just being realistic, and realistic usually upsets all sorts of socially prescribed norms or dogmas a few people want the rest of society to embrace.
That affects people with any sort of a deficit. Where those of us with male biology are earning appliances and providing appliances among other things, this will always be true. I don't think it's wrong to say so, and I don't think it's wrong to refuse to blame anybody or any group for it: it's simply how the cards have randomly landed after the shuffle, as it were.
When females were treated like birthing appliances, something we all see as atrocious barbaric behavior, any woman without wide hips, or exceptionally skinny or small, suffered the same sorts of deficits. The problem isn't disability, really. The problem, to quote Frank Zappa, is "Appliantology."
flashing around cash wouldn't ever be my style, though its a little sad how many people try it. and to an extent how many younger people read more in to it than there really is.
People with real money or that are comfortable having money don't flash.
Sure, they will have nice things, but they won't brag. These things are just quality, not status symbols.
VH, I have a question. It is sensitive, so I will understand if you decide not to answer it.
I was sighted, but not ever 20 20, so was always treated as a blind person, or a person that didn’t see well.
I did have lots of sight at one time, so can understand it 100%.
Here is the question.
When you were a sighted woman, or girl, how did you view blind or disabled men or boys?
Were you totally open to a relationship, casual, or what have you with one, or did you overlook them in some way?
Did you even really notice them?
I noticed and was always open, due to my status as a person that wasn’t perfect, so to speak.
Leo, you got me! That is all women want from men, money and poop cleanup. I feel so ashamed that you caught me out.
Actually, you've forgotten a few important things that women need from men.
We need your big strong muscles to do all the heavy lifting.
Then we need someone to take out that stinky garbage because we're too delicate to lug it to the curb.
And, the most important thing of all-we need you for squishing and splatting thos creepy bugs!
Oh, my! Smile.
And in our house, I am the one who frequently cooks / does the dishes, and she squashes the bugs. But it isn't because it is new or sensitive or popular, it just so happens it works out that way.
I know that post was sarcastic, I fully understand why. I never ever used to acknowledge the things I wrote about earlier, even if I did see them and we see family court and similar situations rigged to support that.
when I'm out in public, whether I'm trying to get dates, or just grocery shopping, people often come up to me, cause of that thing I mentioned earlier, called having a smile on my face, not to mention my good looks.
they'd comment on how pretty I am. and, believe it or not, both men and women alike have continued the conversation, and bought us both coffee.
this has happened on multiple occasions, in various settings, as I've said, which is why I say, no matter how many of you wanna slam the self confidence/appearance aspect of this debate, it really does work wonders.
Okay, lets sign you up for mate one or something and see how you do? Game? Smile.
Chelsea, some of us dogs are just plain uglier'n you, pure and simple, and some of us are also just average in other ways. I'm pointing at myself here, so kiddies, don't get offended now.
Vh, you'll have to look to Wayne or Ryan for those big muscles: mine are average.
But once I left the University classroom and entered the workplace, the first thing I learned was even average, unexceptional guys like me would be called upon to move a box or something for women, no matter the ideology. Since I'm an average, and they weren't impaired, their ability to do so probably matched mine at the very least.
Ah but I'm a life observer, so by definition don't always comply to what view is popular, sanctified, or what have you. Just see what's around, not what you're supposed to.
Leo, in response to your post 49
It was tongue in cheek as well as sarcasm. We’re getting off topic here, but you said “What you want” and your post was directed to me. If all I was interested in was a provider and poop picker upper, I could have had that. There’s a lot more to the issue than those things!
If I were still looking for someone to have children with, you can darn well bet I’d be crossing off the guys who couldn’t hold a job, didn’t pay their bills, etc. Responsibility and fewer restrictions where money is concerned would be good assets in a potential father. If you think I’m ashamed of that, you’re wrong. Any reasonable guy looking to have children better be thinking of the same or similar issues when choosing a partner. But those are only parts of the puzzle and none of these things have a definable equation. Physical attraction, personality, socio-economic background, the list is endless and the importance of each factor differs for each individual. Diaper changing and litter scooping might make it as high on the list as money, maybe even higher!
Right now, it’d be great to have someone to share the bills with, but I have to tell you, he’s going to have to be a really special person for me to want to share my personal space with. And you can bet, money is NOT going to be any where near the top of the list of his important qualities. And it wouldn’t have been before either.
Just because I don't wholeheartedly embrace what you say doesn't mean I don't see or acknowledge the point. I disagree that is what it all comes down to.
oh actually my last post was in response to Leo's 54. Whoops!
forereel, in response to post 51:
When I had 20/20, I don¡¦t think I ever had contact with someone who was blind/VI. I did read Ice Castles, though. ƒº There was a guy who used leg brace crutches (not sure of the proper term for these) in my high school. He was very quiet and other than saying hi, we never spoke. I don¡¦t recall ever seeing him have a conversation with anyone. I¡¦m trying to recall my impression of him through my teen eyes rather than through the filter of a hopefully wiser woman. I remember he was attractive, on the short side with a slightly stocky build and I don¡¦t think I ever saw him smile. I didn¡¦t have a crush on him and since he was so introverted the idea of him being interested in me would never have occurred. I don¡¦t know how I would¡¦ve responded if he¡¦d approached me, although since I was in high school, there¡¦s a good chance I might have been standoffish since we tend to be very self conscious and self absorbed in those years.
I went to a college prep program for visually impaird and physically disabled people a few years later and that was my first contact with other people with visual impairment. There were two totally blind guys there and one was an idiot so he was immediately dismissed for his jackassery. The other was 17 and newly blind. He was very sweet, very young and probably not accepting of his blindness at that point. I liked him but wasn¡¦t interested, not due to his blindness, but because of his youth. I dated a guy in the program who was visually impaired like myself at the time-he is the one I mentioned in an earlier post. Oh, an important note here-those of us with visual impairments hung out together and those with physical impairments hung out together. The VI group as a whole felt rather glad that we had visual impairments rather than physical impairments. I remember one of us saying something to the effect of ¡§I¡¦d rather be dead than in a wheelchair.¡¨ Years later, I became friends with one of the physically disabled girls from the program and guess what? They were all saying the same type of things about us! Better the evil you know, I suppose.
I had a relationship with another visually impaired guy that was very significant but I never even thought of him until I gave serious thought to your question. That¡¦s because he didn¡¦t fuss about it and when I think of him, I don¡¦t think of him in terms of his vision impairment.
I¡¦ve never dated a man with a physical disability, but then none ever asked me out. There was a guy in college I would have gone out with if he¡¦d asked.
So, to make this more concise, I'd say that blindness or visual impairment didn't make me not interested in a guy. How he carried himself or particular characteristics were more important. Looks, dress, intelligence, humor, self possession, all of these things were more important. When you can see, obviously, you rate things on that first because it is the first contact.
Oh, and by the way, if I was put off by a disability, visual or otherwise, let me just be honest and admit that not only was this due to discomfort but also worrying about how being with someone with whatever issue would reflect on me.
As much as I¡¦d like to say otherwise, I don¡¦t doubt that women in general might be inclined to see a blind/VI man as less capable. I get the ¡§you live on your own? How do you take care of yourself?¡¨ crap from nurses-nurses! Often enough When I have a doctor appointment to know that decent intelligent people have no real clue or understanding because they don¡¦t have any real contact with it so it seems beyond comprehension that we can live reasonable lives. Or when the medical staff is filling out a form and ask (because it is on the form) ¡§are you employed?¡¨ and when I say yes, they say patronizingly, ¡§how nice for you.¡¨
Yup, I do believe dating is harder with a disability! Heck, I can tell you from my own personal experience from when I could see compared to now. It¡¦s a totally different experience. On the plus side, I like myself more now than I did then.
On a related note, there was a totally blind girl attending the same college as me. She was beautiful. At the time, I remember thinking all the guys were after her. But as I reflect on all this in order to answer your question, I¡¦ve realized that ALL the guys were not after her. The first and second tier guys didn¡¦t pay her any attention. It was the average guys and the very less than average guys who followed her around, asking her for dates. And I believe they never would¡¦ve tried if she¡¦d been able to see them. My interpretation, of course, there¡¦s no way I can prove their motivation.
So, to wrap it all up, I don¡¦t know about the 20/20 bit. I¡¦d strongly suspect I would¡¦ve considered a blind guy a bit of a challenge. I can¡¦t imagine I¡¦d have been so wise as to know that they were human just like me.
Well, ¡¦
Seriously, thanks for your post, and candor. I don't have anything to add or say yet.
I wanted a post from a woman that was sighted before, then had to deal with the issue from the other side.
You were young when your sight was going, so that helped, but you can see both sides of the fince, and that is good.
I get what you're saying, VH, and makes sense. Further I'm not one who persinally fits the mold relationship wise, I was only speaking in general terms about first impressions.
What surprises me is what you said about other visually impaired people's attitude of other disabilities. I always attributed my being open minded about that stuff to being blind myself and thereby owing others the understanding I hope to get. Educated again. And you probably hit the nail on the head when you said "the evil they know."
And she has money, doesn't want anyone to share her space, unless he's special, pays her bills, washes her own dishes.
I wonder what she does with all that trash she hasn't taken out to the burb? Are there bugs walking around she hasn't smashed too?
Just wondering. Smile.
I've had similar experiences as VH has, regarding people in wheelchairs, or who have other disabilities, thinking I have it harder, as someone who's blind. and, just like her, I was utterly shocked to find this out.
VH probably said what the rest of us couldn't come up with: It's the evil they know.
I know people who think the heat is fine to live with but don't understand how people can walk around in cold rain most of the year like we do up here. It's all in what people are familiar with, I guess.
yeah. if they aren't or don't have to be faced with it, it simply doesn't or can't exist. lol.
Hmm, that's what I get for writing my response up in an Outlook email body. I was adding my thoughts as they occurred to me so that I could post a less rambling response. Notice that I said LESS for those of you who are snickering at my fairly rambling response...
¡¦ equals apostrophe
¡§ equals quote
Please, someone do my dishes! The dish detergent is hell on my hands!
Some of us will never earn the right to criticize anybody for rambling. Lol
Cold Water. Smile.
So here's a thought. Speeking for those of us who've been blind since birth. How is it harder for us to communicate when we lack the ability to use eye contact, if we've never used it in our lives? I still stand by the fact that it's just different, because either way, we still have our other sences, which we can mannage quight well. I don't buy the whole better hearing and this and that bullshit. Can't say I understand for those with vision or who've lost it. I do think that it's harder, more in the sence that they've adapted to it. But at least I don't think about who's looking at me, or if I've missed a cute guy because I didn't share the look? Because I've not had that experience. So I don't think it's harder.
Dolce, I see what you are saying and I understand it's what you know. I have no doubt that in some ways, those who have been blind from birth or very young have some advantages over those of us who lost it later in life because you grow naturally as I said earlier.
Maybe the better way to phrase it is that those of us with a vision impairment have an added disadvantage in the dating world, at least among normally sighted people. That disadvantage would disappear if it's in a community of blind people. If no one has eye contact, and they all have to learn things through alternate methods other than vision, teveryone is on equal footing.
Everyone is the world has some disadvantage when it comes to dating and relationships, and we have some of those as well as sight loss.
But maybe this poor dead horse has been beat enough?
Should we make this into a "tips and tricks for compensating the disadvantages of dating blind in the sighted world" thread?
I had a view, so wondered if others shared it or not. My view came from personal experiences, and others I know that are blind/disabled experiences too.
I asked a question, received answers, and that was wonderful.
These answers educated me much, and that was better.
I'm pleased!
I should have said, "Have I beat this poor dead horse enough?" it wasn't directed at the thread.
I guess it doesn't matter how you said, just say.
What else do you think? Lol
Dolce, the eye contact thing for any of us doesn't affect our communication until you're with someone who depends on that form of communication. This is not a sighted person's fault.
If you go buy a pet snake, for instance, it will never learn its name. Know why? It can't hear you. It only relates by feel, smell, some sight, and some infrared.
You can feel things, you can smell things, you can hear and it can't. So any nice music you play to it will be totally lost on the snake.
So any sighted preson who dates us will have the problem that a major part of their life experience, and an important part of their communications, will be lost on us.
It was even true having a daughter. She's a photographer, and I supported everything she does. She appears very professional about it, to me and other people. I take people's word for it that her pictures look really good. Including some relatives of mine who go out of their way to not give praise.
Now, in her experience, right or wrong, she felt bad that I could not fully support her, in the way she understands being supported. Why? Aren't you encouraging her? Yes, and I bought expensive equipment for her also, and classes, and supported her efforts. But, I can't actually look at the pictures and form an opinion. Her experience, because she has that dimension we call sight, would dictate that she didn't want a dad who was just, as she and her peers say, doing what dads are supposed to do. She wanted the support of a parent who had actually experienced her work. And photography is in fact a lot of work. This I did know growing up with a family of photographers. And yes, I hear bells and dogmatics saying that if Only I had been more proactive, or asked her about what each picture was about, and so on.
Except: to someone who experiences life visually, it's not what the picture is about, it's the whole experience. I did understand her points, I bet VH here could vouch for her points as well. I'm not gonna lie to you: it made me sad. But being the parent and her the teenager at the time, I kept that part to myself since teenagers, girls especially, it seems, are pretty emotionally tenuous and are in need of validation more than almost anything else: right up there with food, clothing, shelter and guidance.
Why do I say all this? Sight is extradimensional to us. For those of us who have never had it, I don't think we can truly appreciate either its impact or its importance to people who experience life in that dimension. Do we try? Sure, of course: we're all humans and humans by default will sympathize with the plight or experience of other humans as best they can. Part of that sympathizing comes in the form of knowing they are dealing with a limitation: not your or mine, but theirs, if they can't use something so integral to their life experience, and if they are forced to lose a dimension of their perception in some way.
Probably messing up here, but I think I'm probably in the park on this one.
Leo, you bring forth a good point. I guess I wasn't clear, though. What I meant was that it wouldn't affect us because we've been blind all ovr lives, and sighted people too. We just have to adapt and communicate. Sure there are some things to our disadvantage, but we all have those. :)
Dolce, I contend that "hard" constitutes the disadvantage.
Do we, the blind-since-birth population, actually have to do more or struggle harder, in a way we understand intimately? No, not really; it's all we know.
However, we are still running uphill. It doesn't matter that uphill is all we've ever known or ever will. Even if we know no different, the people we might wish to date, those of them who can see and who use eye contact, most definitely know, and it will impact them even if it doesn't ultimately get in the way. For the good ones, it won't.
I do see what you're getting at, and it's a good mindset to have on the whole. I just think it still bears highlighting that we still have a harder time, as a disadvantage still exists whether we know the alternative or not.
I think that dating and getting to know people is especially difficult when one is blind. For one thing, our face to face interactions with others can be more limited compared to those who can be a bit more mobile and out in the world. This is true when it comes to simply meeting platonic friends as well as the possibly intimate candidates with which we might like to forge something special. At least most of you are still quite young and as long as you persevere, your odds of finding someone increase with that level of determined consistency. I've sort of excluded most women right out of the gate based on factors and personal choices. I am short. I am a total and I do not wish to raise children in any capacity. As I've said before on other threads, this eliminates most people right from the outset. Still, it's a much more predictable and stable existence.
Hey, at least you know what you want. This is kind of off topic, but I don't understand why people get so angry at other people when they say they want nothing to do with children, like it's some aweful choice. It's better than the guys who knock up some chick and leave her on her own when they find out. But going back to the topic I still agree with what I said before. I've been partially blind since birth with some loss of vision in my left eye, but it hasn't made a large difference with me. I realize we all handle changes differently, and we all have different perspectives on the world and people though. I hate making such general statements but I don't know what else to say, I've all ready said it.
Although I do think dating is hard for everybody, I think it's going to be especially hard for us disabled and blind folks and probably especially people like me who've been born blind if we think the only way to go about dating is the conventional way. Somehow I think somebody with partial vision or somebody who used to be sighted earlier in life is easier for most people to relate to. Somebody born blind might be considered more alien, so either you are going to have a very noble struggle or you might consider other groups outside of the fully sighted or finding other ways to meet people that don't involve large crowds and loud music. LOL!
Book stores in the reading area. Coffee shops, if you are a daily visitor, or maybe you are there say on Friday's at 7:30 every week.
Church, school, Weddings, If you have a gym, or a rec center in your neighborhood.
These are just a few, but you still have the problem of the understanding you are glind, not retarded, unable to do this or that.
Social, in, what will my friends think, even if they like you much.
Other stuff.
What'd I tell ya, people make it all just needlessly complicated. *heavy sigh* LOL!
The crux of the biscuit for me is that it's harder for blind people, whether you're blind since birth or adventitiously blinded later on, because you have to deal with the attitudes of the sighted. I was very interested in a guy in New York City where I lived for a while, and his response to me at the time was that he would never date a blind person because the blind person wouldn't be able to tell him how handsome, gorgeous, beautiful (fill in the blank) he was. Never mind that for me I had other ways of discerning beauty, and for me they were enough. And then you have to deal with others' misperceptions of your capabilities no matter how capable you are. That, and for me, I was pretty self-conscious about my looks due to an unfortunately bad case of acne when I was in my teens. Suffice it to say, I never really grew out of that and I think I missed opportunities from the good ones that were right in front of me. The whole package has made me rather cynical in my darker moods and somewhat uninterested in trying at times.
My gut reaction is that feller was too interested in being told how good-looking he was and he was foolish to think that because you were blind you couldn't discern beauty, as if beauty is only external, physical and only can be perceived visually. He probably wouldn't have been worth the bother.
The irony is that he'll probably end up alone. Most of us are just average anyway; there are very few of us who stand out to the world at large. It's very annoying, but I think the gay male community seems obsessed with the idea of perfection, so if you're disabled and gay, it's like the kiss of death. That and I've heard it said that once you reach 30 or 35, at least for males, you're done. Which is sad because you still have the majority of your life left and you're basically dismissed out of hand because you're 35 or 40 or 45, and you kinda have a thing for this guy who's your age, but he wants to date some 20-year-old. Not saying it doesn't ever work because sometimes it does if both parties have something in common and are truly attracted to one another beyond the mere looks thing, but most of the time these guys seem just desperate to me. It's pretty fucking stupid.
Yes. The gym and coffee shops are both great places. I've found a lot of people are very sociable at coffee shops. At school I went to the coffee shops a lot because I loved my caramel latte. I'd be checking emails on my phone or doing something, and even though I was occupying myself and probably looked busy sometimes people would come over and talk to me. Mostly chicks. No complaints about that lol. I was at the gym 6 days a week and people would work out with me, talk to me, help me when I didn't know where something was when it was moved occasionally, and even pushed me to go harder. There were some sexy girls there too. I wish I had gotten a chance to talk more to this one who lifted with me one day. She sounded good looking and she had some great smelling perfume on as a bonus, plus she was nice.
I want to add to this post from a blindness perspective and a person who used to be wen I was yunger in a world of sighted people and that is it. So its not harder to find a date when your blind? So tell me this, I was 21, could binch press almost 215 pounds, 200 25 pounds was a nice start for squatting, yes I was out going for the most part. Guess what the time I was in high school, college I barely got dates. Back in high school I played physical high school football still very few dates. My point is this, from what I got at the time and now you can get dates but as a blind person you need to fine way to shrug off the stario types that are placed on us. Yes! wake up, sighted people stario type us like or not. Even if you tell me to go eat dog poop, it still stands. :) Thankfully my dating days are over and I am hoping for good seeings how I am married and plan to stay married.
Good perfume's always nice. Just no smokers, please.
Okay, the first thing I noticed aout this post is the word, "disabled." I HATE, HATE, HATE that word! Don't think of yourself as disabled for one thing. We are perfectly able to do things, we just do them differently.
But differently abled just sounds like political correct lying. there is nothing wrong with admitting that we have a handicap. We're all disabled in some form. I'd rather honestly just tell it like it is.
Jen, if that is how you feel, that is fine. When I was legally blind but my vision was very functional, I didn't consider myself disabled. I definitely had challenges that is for sure.
Since things have changed and I really only have light perception and a bit of shape/shadow and a smidge of color on the rare occasion, I do consider myself disabled. I'm not thrilled about it, but going from sighted to legally blind to pretty darn close to blind, there's no point in prettying it up.
But I speak for myself.
RE Johndy's post: I have to wonder if the gay male situation will improve for you when gays are less marginalized? Perhaps they're looking for youth and vitality as revolutionaries do it, sort of the-strong-must-survive? Obviously you'll know better than us with no experience, but. One could hope.
It's possible, although in Manhattan, you'd think the marginalization factor would be significantly less. The good and bad news right now is that I'm not actively seeking to date at this time; I'm focusing on myself and getting my house in order so that I can be solvent again.
Actually I didn't think Jen said differently abled. I do think that we do the same things everyone else does in a different way. I'd rather say I'm blind rather than disabled. Because I'm perfectly able to do the things I do. I don't like prettying up words, but I also don't like putting myself in a position where my blindness affects my abilities negatively.
One thing is true. Unless one lives in a bigger city, we certainly travel less efficiently than do most mobile non-pedestrians.
* raises Scotch glass to the last post* I am privileged to live in the heart of a good-sized city, where pedestrian travel is also part of the culture. Living in Portland, it's part of the lower footprint lifestyle and there are buses and trains everywhere.
Living in SmellA California or some spots in Florida or other places, pedestrians blind and sighted are seen as riff raff, bus trash, what have you.
And not being able to go somewhere by yourself is terrible. Not being able to accompany Her if She needs you to is terrible.
I will never forget how it was, that is for certain.